Comments on: Book excerpt: On miracles

By: YASHWATA

YASHWATA — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 04:00:33 +0000

Ad hominem. You lose.

By: Josh

Josh — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 03:13:19 +0000

YASHWATA, you must understand that I can remain ignorant of how the Virgin birth happened, but still believe it did; again, see the reason listed in my two previous posts.

Because I continue to refer you to my case above, I will rest it here.

Finally, feel free to take excerpts or make implications about my writing as necessary, so you can bend it to support your argument.

By: YASHWATA

YASHWATA — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 23:14:47 +0000

I agree that “The Bible is correct in its description of the birth of Jesus” is a coherent proposition about the world. Therefore, it is a belief one could have (as long as one has not checked too carefully). And this belief has a logical implication that the birth was a miracle. So, if you believe that the Bible is correct, you (sort of) believe (by implication) that the birth was a miracle. But when it comes to the event itself, you have no specific opinions about it. You have no picture in your mind of how it happened — of what took place. You don’t have a single specific belief about what took place. You have only what amounts to a verbal formula, “It was a miracle,” which doesn’t actually mean anything outside the self-referential discourse of Christian dogma.

“It was a miracle” can be regarded as a profession of ignorance. It can be regarded as a profession of affiliation — that is, a marketing slogan for the Christian religion. But it is not a profession of belief.

By: Josh

Josh — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 21:41:21 +0000

YASHWATA, I do understand the basis of your case, and clearly addressed it above; a belief in the Bible as historical document, which presents the Virgin birth. Likewise, the notion that a historical manuscript would satisfy an explanation in modern science is an illegitimate premise for your case.

By: YASHWATA

YASHWATA — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 05:05:50 +0000

Josh, you have missed the point the point of my article. The point is that if you don’t know how it happened, then you don’t know what happened. You don’t even have a belief as to what happened. No one who says "I don't know" is talking about a belief. Saying "It was a miracle" is the same as saying "I don't know what happened." It doesn't refer to a belief, only to a lack of knowledge. People say, "I believe God did it," but this is equivalent to "I have absolutely no idea what actually took place." To insist that this is a statement of belief is to misunderstand the word.

By: Josh

Josh — Sun, 21 Aug 2011 04:04:33 +0000

Belief: confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof (Dictionary.com). YASHWATA, it appears that your logic or at least definitions are inaccurate. If anyone could tell you exactly how the Virgin birth happened, then we would refer to it as a fact, not a belief. No one is claiming to know how the Virgin birth happened, rather people believe the Bible presents a historical case for the birth of Jesus through the Virgin birth.

Second, do you really think the Bible’s authors, writing nearly 2000 years ago, would understand fertilization, blastocyst implantation into the uterus, embryogensis, progesterone levels, and the rest of a preganancy? Your basis for this argument is silly.

By: YASHWATA

YASHWATA — Tue, 31 May 2011 20:23:22 +0000

Rob, you have missed the point the point of my article. My “disbelief” is not the issue. If you don’t know how a putative miracle happened, then you don’t know what took place. You don’t even have a *belief* about what took place. All you can say about the event is, “I don’t know how it happened.” The statement “I don’t know” is not an expression of belief.

So, not only haven’t we seen any miracles, no one even believes in them. Including you.

By: Rob

Rob — Tue, 31 May 2011 04:57:14 +0000

Do you exercise the same disbelief when it comes to the origin of life as inanimate matter? You’ve seen that just as often as you’ve seen a virgin birth.

By: YASHWATA

YASHWATA — Sun, 15 May 2011 05:24:48 +0000

I don't believe in it. I see light. I can measure it. I can learn how it works. Because of all this, I know that light is real.

By: Rob

Rob — Sun, 15 May 2011 05:16:10 +0000

No one can explain to you how light can be both a wave and a particle, but you still believe in light.